A Critical Response to @ehp_57796

@ehp_57796 states, "The Timothy verses are just two of many in scripture defining the ecclesiastical office of the Church." "And promised the HS to guide them," "in turn taught others in succession."

1.  So both the Timothy passages and that of Titus were Paul giving instruction on how those believing communities can choose their own leaders; overseers (translated bishop in the past or pastor today) and servant leaders (translated deacons, which is what most faith traditions use).

This is a trustworthy saying: “If someone aspires to be a church leader, he desires an honorable position.” So a church leader must be a man whose life is above reproach. He must be faithful to his wife. He must exercise self-control, live wisely, and have a good reputation. He must enjoy having guests in his home, and he must be able to teach. He must not be a heavy drinker or violent. He must be gentle, not quarrelsome, and not love money. He must manage his own family well, having children who respect and obey him. For if a man cannot manage his own household, how can he take care of God’s church?

A church leader must not be a new believer, because he might become proud, and the devil would cause him to fall. Also, people outside the church must speak well of him so that he will not be disgraced and fall into the devil’s trap.

In the same way, deacons must be well respected and have integrity. They must not be heavy drinkers or dishonest with money. They must be committed to the mystery of the faith now revealed and must live with a clear conscience. Before they are appointed as deacons, let them be closely examined. If they pass the test, then let them serve as deacons.

In the same way, their wives must be respected and must not slander others. They must exercise self-control and be faithful in everything they do.

A deacon must be faithful to his wife, and he must manage his children and household well. Those who do well as deacons will be rewarded with respect from others and will have increased confidence in their faith in Christ Jesus.

The Truths of Our Faith

I am writing these things to you now, even though I hope to be with you soon, so that if I am delayed, you will know how people must conduct themselves in the household of God. This is the church of the living God, which is the pillar and foundation of the truth.

Without question, this is the great mystery of our faith:

Christ was revealed in a human body

and vindicated by the Spirit.

He was seen by angels

and announced to the nations.

He was believed in throughout the world

and taken to heaven in glory.

1 Tim 3:1-14

"And promised the HS to guide them," Jesus promised his Ruach to indwell the disciples so they could write the NT and to make disciples, who in turn made disciples.

'But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away! For if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you. '

John 16:7

https://www.bible.com/bible/314/JHN.16.7

'But the Helper, the Ruach ha-Kodesh whom the Father will send in My name, will teach you everything and remind you of everything that I said to you. '

John 14:26

https://www.bible.com/bible/314/JHN.14.26

'“When the Helper comes—whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father—He will testify about Me. '

John 15:26

https://www.bible.com/bible/314/JHN.15.26

'Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, immersing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Ruach ha-Kodesh , '

Matthew 28:19

https://www.bible.com/bible/314/MAT.28.19

@eph_57796 states, "Eph 2:20 the CHURCH (inserting that the word, ekklesia means the catholic church which didn't yet exist, when in fact only means community or body of believers), is built upon the foundation of APOSTLES and prophets.

2.  Paul says that the foundation of Christianity is built on the prophets (OT), and the Apostles (NT), where the cornerstone or head is Jesus.

So now you Gentiles are no longer strangers and foreigners. You are citizens along with all of God’s holy people. You are members of God’s family. Together, we are his house, built on the foundation of the apostles and the prophets. And the cornerstone is Christ Jesus himself. We are carefully joined together in him, becoming a holy temple for the Lord. Through him you Gentiles are also being made part of this dwelling where God lives by his Spirit.

Ephesians 2:19-21

3.  @ehp_57796 misquotes Ephesians 4:11, saying it's a ref to the appointment of apostles, as in catholic succession.  I have included the entire passage, which is verses 11-13, showing this is a list of spiritual gifts for believing communities.

Now these are the gifts Christ gave to the church: the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, and the pastors and teachers. Their responsibility is to equip God’s people to do his work and build up the church, the body of Christ. This will continue until we all come to such unity in our faith and knowledge of God’s Son that we will be mature in the Lord, measuring up to the full and complete standard of Christ.

Ephesians 4:11-13

4.  @ehp_57796 next misrepresents 1Corinthians 12:28-29 by asserting that it once again is a reference to the catholic church.  If you read the full passage, you see this is again Paul talking about the spiritual body of Messiah, where there are many parts, then proceeds to list spiritual gifts within the believing communities.

The human body has many parts, but the many parts make up one whole body. So it is with the body of Christ. Some of us are Jews, some are Gentiles, some are slaves, and some are free. But we have all been baptized into one body by one Spirit, and we all share the same Spirit.

Yes, the body has many different parts, not just one part. If the foot says, “I am not a part of the body because I am not a hand,” that does not make it any less a part of the body. And if the ear says, “I am not part of the body because I am not an eye,” would that make it any less a part of the body? If the whole body were an eye, how would you hear? Or if your whole body were an ear, how would you smell anything?

But our bodies have many parts, and God has put each part just where he wants it. How strange a body would be if it had only one part! Yes, there are many parts, but only one body. The eye can never say to the hand, “I don’t need you.” The head can’t say to the feet, “I don’t need you.”

In fact, some parts of the body that seem weakest and least important are actually the most necessary. And the parts we regard as less honorable are those we clothe with the greatest care. So we carefully protect those parts that should not be seen, while the more honorable parts do not require this special care. So God has put the body together such that extra honor and care are given to those parts that have less dignity. This makes for harmony among the members, so that all the members care for each other. If one part suffers, all the parts suffer with it, and if one part is honored, all the parts are glad.

All of you together are Christ’s body, and each of you is a part of it. Here are some of the parts God has appointed for the church:

first are apostles,

second are prophets,

third are teachers,

then those who do miracles,

those who have the gift of healing,

those who can help others,

those who have the gift of leadership,

those who speak in unknown languages.

Are we all apostles? Are we all prophets? Are we all teachers? Do we all have the power to do miracles? Do we all have the gift of healing? Do we all have the ability to speak in unknown languages? Do we all have the ability to interpret unknown languages? Of course not! So you should earnestly desire the most helpful gifts.

1 Corinthians 12:12-31

5.  @ehp_57796 next, makes the assertion that Peter replaced Judas with Matthias by casting lots.  When we see that Jesus himself replaces Judas with Paul, in Acts 9.

Meanwhile, Saul was uttering threats with every breath and was eager to kill the Lord’s followers. So he went to the high priest. He requested letters addressed to the synagogues in Damascus, asking for their cooperation in the arrest of any followers of the Way he found there. He wanted to bring them—both men and women—back to Jerusalem in chains.

As he was approaching Damascus on this mission, a light from heaven suddenly shone down around him. He fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul! Saul! Why are you persecuting me?”

“Who are you, lord?” Saul asked.

And the voice replied, “I am Jesus, the one you are persecuting! Now get up and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do.”

Acts 9:1-6

6.  Next @ehp_57796 inserts that 1 Tim 3:1,8, 5:17 give qualifications for  bishops priests and deacons.  Except as I have shown in point # 1 that Paul is giving in 1 Timothy 3:1-14 the qualifications for overseers (bishops/pastors), and servant leaders (deacons).  And that in chapter 5:1-17 is a reference to elders, in the Jewish community, they were the more mature people who helped watch over others.  This chapter actually talks about the different ages of males and females and their roles within the community.  Also, some have suggested that the elder used here was used interchangeably with overseer or pastor.  When Jesus died, the veil of the temple tore, giving believers direct access to God and ending the OT office of the priest.  We see in 1 Peter that all believers are part of a royal priesthood, all having access to God.

Never speak harshly to an older man, but appeal to him respectfully as you would to your own father. Talk to younger men as you would to your own brothers. Treat older women as you would your mother, and treat younger women with all purity as you would your own sisters.

Take care of any widow who has no one else to care for her. But if she has children or grandchildren, their first responsibility is to show godliness at home and repay their parents by taking care of them. This is something that pleases God.

Now, a true widow, a woman who is truly alone in this world, has placed her hope in God. She prays night and day, asking God for his help. But the widow who lives only for pleasure is spiritually dead even while she lives. Give these instructions to the church so that no one will be open to criticism.

But those who won’t care for their relatives, especially those in their own household, have denied the true faith. Such people are worse than unbelievers.

A widow who is put on the list for support must be a woman who is at least sixty years old and was faithful to her husband. She must be well-respected by everyone because of the good she has done. Has she brought up her children well? Has she been kind to strangers and served other believers humbly? Has she helped those who are in trouble? Has she always been ready to do good?

The younger widows should not be on the list, because their physical desires will overpower their devotion to Christ, and they will want to remarry. Then they would be guilty of breaking their previous pledge. And if they are on the list, they will learn to be lazy and will spend their time gossiping from house to house, meddling in other people’s business and talking about things they shouldn’t. So I advise these younger widows to marry again, have children, and take care of their own homes. Then the enemy will not be able to say anything against them. For I am afraid that some of them have already gone astray and now follow Satan.

If a woman who is a believer has relatives who are widows, she must take care of them and not put the responsibility on the church. Then the church can care for the widows who are truly alone.

Elders who do their work well should be respected and paid well, especially those who work hard at both preaching and teaching.

1 Timothy 5:1-17

You are coming to Christ, who is the living cornerstone of God’s temple. He was rejected by people, but he was chosen by God for great honor.

And you are living stones that God is building into his spiritual temple. What’s more, you are his holy priests. Through the mediation of Jesus Christ, you offer spiritual sacrifices that please God. As the Scriptures say,

“I am placing a cornerstone in Jerusalem,

chosen for great honor,

and anyone who trusts in him

will never be disgraced.”

Yes, you who trust him recognize the honor God has given him. But for those who reject him,

“The stone that the builders rejected

has now become the cornerstone.”

And,

“He is the stone that makes people stumble,

the rock that makes them fall.”

They stumble because they do not obey God’s word, and so they meet the fate that was planned for them.

But you are not like that, for you are a chosen people. You are royal priests, a holy nation, God’s very own possession. As a result, you can show others the goodness of God, for he called you out of the darkness into his wonderful light.

1 Peter 2:4-9

7.  @ehp_57796 then goes on to misrepresent 1 Timothy 4:14 (isolated verse out of context) by saying it supports the catholic priesthood, when in fact Paul is giving young Timothy encouragement.

Teach these things and insist that everyone learn them. Don’t let anyone think less of you because you are young. Be an example to all believers in what you say, in the way you live, in your love, your faith, and your purity. Until I get there, focus on reading the Scriptures to the church, encouraging the believers, and teaching them.

Do not neglect the spiritual gift you received through the prophecy spoken over you when the elders of the church laid their hands on you. Give your complete attention to these matters. Throw yourself into your tasks so that everyone will see your progress. Keep a close watch on how you live and on your teaching. Stay true to what is right for the sake of your own salvation and the salvation of those who hear you.

1 Timothy 4:11-16

8.  Next, @ehp_57796 asserts in 1 Timothy 5:22 that this is a reference to the duties of the catholic priest.  Something you find nowhere in the passage, instead you see the elder, which I've already clarified was at times a reference to community elders that were spiritually mature, as we see in Titus 1, and other times interchangeable with overseers.  But here is saying that if this elder is paid, he should live a godly life.

Elders who do their work well should be respected and paid well, especially those who work hard at both preaching and teaching. For the Scripture says, “You must not muzzle an ox to keep it from eating as it treads out the grain.” And in another place, “Those who work deserve their pay!”

Do not listen to an accusation against an elder unless it is confirmed by two or three witnesses. Those who sin should be reprimanded in front of the whole church; this will serve as a strong warning to others.

I solemnly command you in the presence of God and Christ Jesus and the highest angels to obey these instructions without taking sides or showing favoritism to anyone.

Never be in a hurry about appointing a church leader. Do not share in the sins of others. Keep yourself pure.

Don’t drink only water. You ought to drink a little wine for the sake of your stomach because you are sick so often.

Remember, the sins of some people are obvious, leading them to certain judgment. But there are others whose sins will not be revealed until later. In the same way, the good deeds of some people are obvious. And the good deeds done in secret will someday come to light.

1 Timothy 5:17-25

9.  Next @ehp_57796, makes an assertion that the apostles are appointing priests in Acts 14:23.  However, when you read the passage in context you see that Paul and Barnabas, are choosing elders (community members that are mature spiritually) to watch over the new believers until they can choose overseers later, as we see in Titus 1, where Paul tells Titus that he is sending him there to Crete to help choose elders who would become overseers.

Paul and Barnabas also appointed elders in every church. With prayer and fasting, they turned the elders over to the care of the Lord, in whom they had put their trust.

Acts 14:23

I left you on the island of Crete so you could complete our work there and appoint elders in each town as I instructed you. An elder must live a blameless life. He must be faithful to his wife, and his children must be believers who don’t have a reputation for being wild or rebellious. A church leader is a manager of God’s household, so he must live a blameless life. He must not be arrogant or quick-tempered; he must not be a heavy drinker, violent, or dishonest with money.

Rather, he must enjoy having guests in his home, and he must love what is good. He must live wisely and be just. He must live a devout and disciplined life. He must have a strong belief in the trustworthy message he was taught; then he will be able to encourage others with wholesome teaching and show those who oppose it where they are wrong

Titus 1:5-9

In summation:

@ehp_57796, like so many RC armchair apologists, only cherry-pick verses out of context, either because they take isolated verses from websites, other posters, or from their doctrinal book.  They must remember that doctrinal books or statements are not infallible; only scripture is infallible.  Many times, doctrinal books/statements can give direct scriptural references, but most often on doctrinal positions that don't exist in scripture, they misquote, only giving indirect references, as this poster has done.  The greek work [katholokos] only means universal, and as is quoted for the first ever by Ignatius in his letter 110 AD, directly translated from the greek, "where Jesus the Messiah is, there is the universal or spiritual body of believers," as Paul describes in 1 Corinthians, as already quoted earlier, in point # 4, and is not a reference to the institution of the Catholic church which didn't yet exist.

Brief History of Christianity:

Messianic Jews

All first believers were believing Jews, what we would call today Messianic jews (or jews that accept Jesus as the Jewish Messiah).  This is everyone saved at Pentecost, Acts 2.  They referred to themselves as [derek] or the path or the way. 

'When the day of Shavuot had come, they were all together in one place. Suddenly, there came from heaven a sound like a mighty rushing wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting. And tongues like fire spreading out appeared to them and settled on each one of them. They were all filled with the Ruach ha-Kodesh and began to speak in other tongues as the Ruach enabled them to speak out. Now, Jewish people were staying in Jerusalem, devout men from every nation under heaven. And when this sound came, the crowd gathered. They were bewildered because each was hearing them speaking in his own language. And they were amazed and astonished, saying, “All these who are speaking—aren’t they Galileans? How is it that we each hear our own birth language? '

Acts 2:1-8

https://www.bible.com/bible/314/ACT.2.1-8

'Now Saul, still breathing out threats and murder against the Lord’s disciples, went to the kohen gadol. He requested letters of introduction from him to the synagogues in Damascus, so that if he found any men or women belonging to the Way, he might bring them as prisoners to Jerusalem. '

Acts 9:1-2

https://www.bible.com/bible/314/ACT.9.1-2

These first Jewish believers we see in some of Paul's communities are the dominant, like in Galatians, and others, like Rome, where it was evenly divided between Jewish and gentle, and in Titus, where it was mostly gentile and a minority Jewish.  During the time of the Roman persecution of the gentile believers and the gentile believers going underground, the Jewish communities lived separately.  We see historically that these Jewish believing communities were first persecuted by the non-believing jews when they didn't participate in the rebellion after the fall of Jerusalem, and were blamed for that failure.  And later, after Christianity was made the official religion of the Roman Empire, the gentile Christians persecuted them in the 5th century.  We see church fathers such as Augustine and Origen referencing these Jewish communities.

First appearance of the Christian label:

  In Acts 11, it states that a mixture of Jewish and gentile believers were called Christians (or little Christs or Christ imitators).

'Then Barnabas left for Tarsus to look for Saul, and when he had found him, he brought him to Antioch. For a whole year, they met together with Messiah’s community and taught a large number. Now it was in Antioch that the disciples were first called “Christianoi.” '

Acts 11:25-26

https://www.bible.com/bible/314/ACT.11.25-26

By the Ecumenical councils, there were hundreds of individual Christian communities.  And if you read the councils, the discussions were made democratically with the overseers or bishops who were present.  Noting that the bishop of Rome almost never attended the eastern councils.  By 1054 AD, just prior to the schism, all Christian communities had grouped into one of five: Jerusalem (Messianic, where Christianity began among the first believers), Alexandria (North Africa), Antioch, Constantinople, and Rome.

Catholic Church/Eastern Orthodox Church:

After the gentile Christians came out of the catacombs, they moved into the pagan temples, especially in Rome.  When the Roman Empire made Christianity the official religion, that once faith and scripture-based Christian community became paganized, in the 5th century.  Between the 5th and the 9th centuries, many unbiblical doctrines developed, such as works salvation, mariology, idolatry, etc.  In the 5th century, the bishop of Antioch first used the title "pope," and by 1054 AD, all bishops were using the title.  This is when the bishop of Rome tried to push for power and developed the doctrine of supremacy, saying only he could use it.  This is one of many reasons for the schism in 1054.  The bishop of Rome, separating himself from the rest of Christianity, equally excommunicated the other.  Leaving the Orthodox Eastern churches to continue the way gentile Christianity has been since the 5th century, and the development of the Catholic Church, or RCC, which continued to spiral downward, leading to the reformation.

Reformation:

The reformation was an attempt by monks, nuns, priests, and cardinals who encompassed over 1/3 of the catholic church to reform, and return the church to faith and scripture-based.  This led to the reformed catholic church (Lutheran) as well as many others.

Evangelical Movement:

To understand the evangelical movement, you must study the first and second great awakenings and the congregational movements in the United States.

What were the First and Second Great Awakenings?

Definition and Historical Setting

The First and Second Great Awakenings refer to widespread religious revivals, primarily in the American colonies (later the United States), which greatly influenced the spiritual, moral, social, and cultural fabric of the nation. These movements involved powerful preaching that called for repentance, emphasized individual faith, and sparked increased church membership and missionary zeal. Through revival gatherings in churches and outdoor “camp meetings,” many professed renewed or newfound commitment to God and displayed outward transformation in moral conduct.

Biblical Basis for Spiritual Revival

Scriptural passages demonstrate that God periodically rekindles His people’s devotion and calls them to renewed commitment. Joel 2:28 reads, “And afterward I will pour out My Spirit on all humanity…” illustrating a promise of spiritual outpouring. Acts 2 similarly depicts an outpouring of the Holy Spirit that transcends cultural boundaries and draws many to repentance. As with the biblical examples, the Great Awakenings were perceived by participants as divinely ignited events where hearts and minds were stirred by the Holy Spirit.

The First Great Awakening (1730s-1740s)

1. Main Figures and Preaching Style

Central figures of the First Great Awakening included Jonathan Edwards, George Whitefield, and John Wesley. Jonathan Edwards is perhaps best known for his sermon “Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God” (1741), where he combined fervent biblical exegesis with a personal call to repentance. George Whitefield, an Anglican preacher, traveled extensively throughout the colonies, drawing unexpectedly large crowds and preaching outdoors-a novel approach that ignited spiritual passions among both churched and unchurched listeners.

2. Societal Influences and Religious Context

Prior to the First Great Awakening, many people were influenced by Enlightenment rationalism. In some regions, traditional churches experienced stagnation, rituals had become rote, and personal faith was often overshadowed by customary practice. The revival preachers confronted this complacency, emphasizing heartfelt devotion and an assurance of salvation through the redemptive work of Christ (cf. Romans 5:1-2). Their passionate proclamation that salvation was an act of God’s grace, rather than mere church membership or moral effort, resonated with colonists.

3. Outcomes and Significance

a. Changed Lives: Thousands claimed to experience conversion, described in personal journals and letters of the era, reflecting deep convictions of sin and the need for God’s mercy.

b. Increased Church Membership: Many denominations witnessed growing attendance. Numerous new congregations arose, and believers grew more passionate about discipleship and missions.

c. Unity and Transatlantic Influence: Though initially centered in the American colonies, news of the Awakening reverberated across the Atlantic to Britain and beyond. Whitefield’s preaching tours particularly bridged continents, fostering a shared sense of revival.

The Second Great Awakening (Late 1700s-Mid-1800s)

1. Camp Meetings and Frontiers

The Second Great Awakening spread across multiple fronts, springing up strongly on the American frontier. Outdoor camp meetings became a defining feature, often drawing large gatherings. These meetings provided an accessible way for frontier families to attend preaching services, pray together, and experience the power of collective worship in regions where established churches were scarce.

2. Key Leaders and Emphases

Charles Grandison Finney, among others, employed direct calls to repentance, congregation-centered prayer, and the “anxious bench” (a place for inquirers to receive counsel). Finney championed a strong emphasis on one’s personal decision for Christ (cf. Acts 16:31: “Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved…”). Preachers grew increasingly focused on evangelism, social reform, and the belief that the gospel should tangibly shape societal values.

3. Social Reforms and Philanthropy

a. Abolition and Temperance: The fervor of religious conviction led Christians to address moral issues like slavery and alcohol abuse. Many believed that if Scripture were heeded, it would inevitably lead to efforts to abolish slavery (cf. Exodus 3:7-10, where God hears the cry of the oppressed) and promote sober living.

b. Missionary Movements and Education: New societies formed to distribute Bibles and literature, such as the American Bible Society. Higher education opportunities expanded through the founding of colleges aiming to train ministers and missionaries.

4. Lasting Effects and Cultural Shifts

The Second Great Awakening reshaped the American religious landscape with a heightened focus on personal faith, practical godliness, and organizing Christian outreach efforts. This wave of spiritual fervor deeply influenced American culture through heightened church membership, social activism, and the formation of new denominations.

Connections to Ongoing Revivals and Scriptural Consistency

Across history, believers have seen that times of spiritual decline often precede a revival of faith. The biblical principle in 2 Chronicles 7:14 underlines this pattern: “if My people who are called by My name humble themselves and pray... then I will hear from heaven…” The Great Awakenings are frequently viewed as manifestations of this rhythm: God stirring hearts to return to Scripture, reaffirm unwavering belief in the bodily resurrection of Christ (cf. 1 Corinthians 15:3-4), and trust in the Spirit’s power to transform society.

Historical Documentation and Anecdotes

1. Firsthand Accounts: Personal diaries and church records from the First Great Awakening reveal that entire towns were stirred, with taverns emptying in favor of nightly prayer gatherings and open-air preaching.

2. Letters and Newspapers: Archival sources, such as colonial newspapers, recounted the unusual crowds gathering to hear Whitefield, sometimes numbering in the thousands. These documents corroborate the magnitude of revival events.

3. Sermons and Publications: Sermons like Jonathan Edwards’s and the prolific writings of John Wesley remain widely preserved in historical and theological libraries.

4. Sociological Observations: Behavioral scientists have studied the communal aspects of revival phenomena, noting the correlation between passionate preaching, earnest prayer, and marked ethical improvements in communities.

Final words:

This has been a critical review; it is not in any way an attack on a faith tradition.  It is simply an observation of people who are on social media representing their faith tradition, who clearly are not well-versed in what scripture says.  It is an attempt to give context to isolated verses used to support a tradition that isn't found in that passage of scripture.  Any attempt on my part is so that those who read this blog will have a better understanding of the scripture referenced.  Always go to the spiritual leaders of your faith tradition if you have questions about your tradition.  But if you engage others on social media, be better prepared to give an answer.  God bless